Fredeen Blades

hey graham sorry it took so long to get this posted, i was up north for a while working. So anyway this is my new hunter, im very happy with the blade but not so much with the handle. The advice you gave me a few weeks ago helped me so much and i thank you for that . 

The knife is 13" overall and 7" from guard to tip,  made from aldo's 1084 (its really hard to work by hand but heat treats real nice) flat ground with blunted clip, wood is macassar ebony and fittings are mild steel (the pin and spacer are very lightly etched)

This blade is my own personal hunter/survival knife, seeing as i go up north to some of the most remote forests i really need to carry something substantial incase something happens. That being the case it has a few scratches in it from testing that i never bothered to remove.

I would love another critique please. Don't hold any punches but know that i already know the handle design sucks,

next time i won't wing the handle.

Thanks Jason

Hey Jason,

You got a really nice hamon on that one. The blade finish also looks pretty good from what I can tell. The pictures aren’t super detailed so I can’t accurately assess the finish but it looks good from what I can see. The guard shape also looks good. It also looks like you got a tighter fit between the guards and handle sections than last time, so that is a good improvement. In one of your other pictures you posted I noticed that there is a gap between the guard and shoulders of the blade. While it is possible to get an extremely tight fit between the guard and shoulders of the blade by just filing free-hand and adjusting, its extremely time consuming and really not worth the time. I would suggest investing in a file guide. That will help you get a good fit between your guard and blade shoulders and is more than worth it in the time saved. You can make your own, however without the aid of a surface grinder to ensure things are completely square, you could run into some issues.

As far as the handle sections, I can tell you did the finishing and a lot of shaping on the sections separately. This usually creates unevenness in the shape of the sections (you can tell where the sections sort of “dip” into one another). It’s best to do all of the shaping and a good portion of the finishing with all of the handle sections together. A good portion of makers will do the complete glue up and assembly before doing any shaping at all. I do a good fit and then a basic “assembly” to do all of the shaping and finishing, but don’t make anything “permenant” until things are where I want them. After that I do the final glue up and assembly, and then touch up the finish as necessary (apply oil finishes, etc.). This will create a continuous and smooth transition between each section, making a multi piece handle feel more like one single unit. You might also want to pay special attention to pin placement. The pin here is a bit off center (both along the length of that section, as well as along the “width”). Anything that is off symmetry in a blade immediately draws attention to it. A slightly off-centered pin can “ruin” a knife, even if everything else is perfect (in terms of those who make high-end knives), since attention is diverted away from the good aspects and focus is placed on the mistake. The handle is relatively well balanced with respect to the blade however, so that is good. Too many people make knives that are not visually balanced between the blade and handle. I’m not saying that the blade and handle have to be the same length, but that things should “look” balanced. Additional width and flare on a handle can make up for a very long blade (adds a visual sense of mass to the handle which offsets the length aspect of the blade), for example. There is no “rule” to this, its just all about what looks and feels right. That’s not something I can really explain, it comes with experience and will develop as you develop your own styles and tastes in blades (which will change over time). In fact in the case of your knife, a little more pommel swell probably would have helped a bit too. Aside from the visual aspect of things like flare and swell in a handle, it does serve a practical purpose by making a more comfortable handle with better retention during use. The number one rule is that good form should always follow function. Often the visually appealing aspects of a knife also enhance performance, so keep that in mind.

The edge beveling looks a bit wide. This is a function of not getting the primary beveling ground down far enough before grinding in the secondary edge bevel. This makes for a “thicker” cutting edge which creates more resistance when cutting. It really takes some getting used to but it is best to grind the primary edge close to a zero edge (say down to at least 1/32” thick, even thinner is better) before doing a secondary edge bevel. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive when in the previous rough grinding you purposely leave the edge thick for HT, but once you do it, it will all make sense (the cutting performance and maximum attainable sharpness will be dramatically increased). The edge beveling is also a little uneven. That will get better with more practice and more blades completed. Also not having to grind as deep and profound of a secondary edge bevel will also take care of that.

The blade shape looks somewhat “straight” especially along the spine. The handle angle and shape, as well as the flow of the belly of the knife don’t exactly match the straightness of the spine. Its not horrible, but just a hint “off”. A very slight curve in the spine would most likely correct this. I personally also don’t care for the clip a great deal. Its not bad, but does interrupt flow a bit. The sharp transitions on the false edge plunges also conflict with things a little. I find it better to try to make these much more of a smooth transition back into the spine, rather than being abrupt. I would also suggest moving your plunge lines back just a hair past the choil. Having the cutting edge exposed right at that “corner” makes sharpening easier. Something else that you will eventually want to look at (though admittedly its probably not something you’ll really be able to address until further down the road) is your plunge cuts. It takes a lot of time and practice to master the technique necessary to give that “rounded” smooth transition in the plunge. Some guys use a round chainsaw file to file in their plunges before grinding the flats. This might be something you’d like to try and would probably help a good deal. Its more work, of course, but that’s usually the way things go when you want to make a “better” knife.

Overall I’d definitely say you are taking some good steps forward and have improved a lot of things from your previous blade, especially since this is a hidden tang (your first?). Flow and form will come over time, so just keep doing what you are doing. I would also suggest looking at a lot of the ABS member’s work to help influence some of your style and blade design. ABS Mastersmiths like Don Hanson, Jerry Fisk, and John White (pretty much any ABS Mastersmith) are all masters of form and flow. There are also many JS smiths that do great work (Brian Thie, Kyle Royer, Nick Wheeler, and many more). I would definitely say my current work definitely reflects more of the “ABS” style. It’s something I have naturally gravitated towards as I have progressed. I’d definitely recommend studying up on a lot of their work and take some design elements from them. Also, start thinking about all the knives which really appeal to you and focus on what elements really speak to you, this will also help you to develop your style

thanks for the reply graham.

Yes this was my first hidden tang and i like the look more then any other type. I think i'll be doing mostly hidden tangs from now on. I don't have a drill press so i do find thing like the guard, spacers and pins difficult to do with a hand drill but the look is worth it if you ask me.

As far as the flow of my blade you're not the only one to tell me that,  do you think it would have helped if i had pulled the clip back and started a gentle curve to transition from the straight section to the suddenly dropped section (where the clip starts now).

Don hanson is one of my favorite makers, his stuff is just amazing. He is the reason i've been trying to do hamons on my blades. Its not like i lucked it out ,i've been trying for the last 3 blades and keeping notes and finally it worked and better still i understand why it worked, but i digress. I looked at his site again and i see what you mean about flow and form, its interesting and i think my next knife will be something similar to his style.

I have a few questions now.

i had a hard time epoxying this together, the pics you saw are not epoxyed they are just pinned. What do you do to protect the blade and handle from excess epoxy ( I got it everywhere and its hard to remove)

also about the edge thickness, because of my equipment (4x36 wood sander) i can't get flat surfaces so i have to draw file them after i've done most of the removal. This does give me a really nice almost totally flat surface but i have to leave the edge thick after heat treat because i can't file the hardened blade. Any suggestions?

On a side note, i have only seen you do one hamon. I would have thought you more interested in them seening as how they would flow with you're elegant blade style.

I personally prefer hidden tang blades myself. Aestetically they are much more appealing to me and are much cleaner than full tang blades. I primarily only do hidden tang blades anymore. Thats not to say I won't do a full tang blade, but its not what I first gravitate towards. Sometime I'll have to do a knife with a frame handle with liners (like the take downs). That has the appearance of a "full tang" but gives you many more options.

I would invest in a little drill press as soon as you can, it will be more than worth it with what you can do and how much easier things will be. You can make a fantastic knife completly by hand without the aid of power tools, but the time and effort spent doing it (AND the time it would add to the learning process) is really not worth it (unless as a maker you wan't to do things completly by hand without power tools, and there are a few makers that do). Eventually you will reach a point where your equipment (or lack thereof in some cases) can start to limit what you can do. Whenever you reach that point things can be pretty frustrating and you can really hold your work back. If you are serious about making blades and you reach that point its probably time to start upgrading and investing in some more equipment. Don't hesitate to scrounge grage sales, craigs list etc, great deals can be had. Also with some basic fabrication equipment (angle grinder w/cutoff wheels, basic stick welder, drill press, etc.) you can make alot of your own equipment and save some money. Unfortunately as a hobby bladesmithing is very expensive. Its probably not as bad as re-building old classic cars, or upgrading a jeep to go off roading (though in some cases it certainly can be) but it is pretty expensive if you really start to get serious about things. I know I probably have at least $5000.00 + in the equipment in my shop (and I don't have too much, and alot of it was gotten at very good prices off craigslist), and that doesn't include all of the money spent on materials and consumables (grinding belts, bandsaw blades, other abrasives, steel, handle material, fuel expenses, etc.). And to get into alot of the equipment I want to eventually transition into I'd have to easily spend 4 or 5 times that ammount (plus the cost of constructing a new shop). Just remember it takes time. Make due with what you have until you can find something better that you can afford (or can save up for). I didn't buy everything for my shop overnight, it took a lot of patience and perserverance looking for good deals and saving up some money for things. I've paid for a good chunk of my equipment with my work, but I know I'm still a long way off from being "profitable" lol.

Generally in terms of flow in a knife, you don't want the "lines" of the blade to transition sharply or abruptly from one to the other. You want things to transition smoothly and "flow" together. This doesn't necessarily mean everything has to be a very smooth gradual curve, but that you promote the same general feel throughout the blade and that the different sections of the blade (tip, spine, belly, ricasso, guard, handle, etc.) compliment one another and maintain the same "theme" instead of standing as separated entities. In your knife, you have an extremly straight spine which very abruptly transitions into a drop point with a clip, and very sharp plunge cuts for the clip beveling. Along the edge, you have somewhat of a more blunt point quickly transistioning into a straight edge. These parts all seem sort of "separate" from one another, hence good flow is not necessarily achieved, as the blade isn't visually cohesive. If you look a knives that flow well they usually have some graceful curvature that transitions into other complimenary arcs, etc. Straight lines in a knife don't always create for the best visual attractiveness (sometimes they work, but that all really depends of course). I would say for this blade, moving the clip back so the transition down to the point is less abrupt and then removing a good bit of the very "straight" spine would have helped a good bit (things can be straight, but don't under-estimate the power of a gradual taper, slight angle, or even very very faint curve), as well as softening the plunges on the clip beveling. Good flow in a knife is sometimes very hard to put your finger on and what works on one knife won't necessarily work on another (or even any others). Don't become excessivly concerned about creating a knife with good flow and form right away, like I have said it will take some time for you to develop your "knifemaker's eye" and to really get a feel for what you like, and what works (as well as what doesn't). Right now I would say make a knife that you like and that you think looks good, with the main focus being placed on getting the construction and finishing aspects down. Keep good form and flow in the back of your mind as you work, but don't let that distract from developing the necessary skills you are trying to build.

As for epoxying, it can be very messy. Don't attempt to do all of your final finish work before hand, know that you will have to come and touch things up after epoxying. As I mentioned some makers do 100% of their shaping AFTER epoxying things, it just comes down to personal preference and what works best for you. I do all of the shaping and get the finish into the beginning stages before epoxying. After epoxying, I usually have to touch things up around the pins (pins need to be left alittle long before epoxying, so there's not too many ways around that). Then the rest of the finish can be blended together and the final finish can be applied (buffing the handle, oil finish, whatever it may be). To help cut down on some of the cleanup and re-finishing its best to wipe off as much of the excess epoxy before it cures. I'll coat the blade and guard with vasilene/petroleum jelly (though not between the guard and blade shoulders, I want epoxy there to seal against moisture). The petroleum jelly allows the epoxy to wipe right off. You probably don't want to use it on handle wood that will be recieving a secondary finish of some sort (stain, other oil finishes etc.). It shouldn't bother things like stabalized woods, or really dense, non-porus, and oily woods. A rag with acetone is also your friend when working with epoxy. Acetone will disolve epoxy (even the cured stuff if you give it enough time), so it will definately help you clean things up. To clean up around the guard/blade joint I used a very thin piece of steel (about 1/8" wide, maybe 1/32" thick) with a bit of a bevel on it, that I wrap a rag around (just one layer at that tip). That allows me to get into the very tight 90 deg joint and clean things up (you don't have to use steel, its just what I had on hand that works great. You could probably even get by with a toothpick with a rag over it, or anything that is thin like that). And a final note is to not use too much epoxy. Putting excessive amounts of epoxy on things will make a bigger mess than if you use only what is actually needed.

As far as the edge thickness goes, you will be restricted by your equipment for the time being. Someday when you are able to transition into a better grinder (either bought or built yourself) this wouldn't be a problem. Something you might want to try for the time being is a product made by Brownells called PBC. Its an anti-scaling compound for heat treatment. It is very very good. A bladesmithing friend gave me a bit to try and its great, as soon as I use up the stuff I have, I'll be ordering a big can of the stuff. You heat the blade to about 600-700 degrees, sprinkle on the PBC and then go about your normal HT. Afterwards you throw the blade into some boiling water and the PBC disolves right off, no decarb, no forge scale, nothing, goes in and comes out the same. With the PBC you could take your edge down to proper thickness before you HT and not have to worry about decarb. That would be the best solution I can think of for you at the moment (that doesn't involve new equipment). Not sure how the PBC would work with differential hardening for hamon though, that would be something that would take some experimentation to determine. You could also modify your 4x36 a bit to allow you to grind more "traditionaly." I'm assuming right now you are using it to do "linear" grinds down the length of the blade (good for truing up the spine and flats, and doing some of the profiling, etc)? You currently cant do traditional grinding with it since the belt rides so far away from the end of the "platen" (if you can even say it has one) and there isn't a sharp transition for doing plunge's there either. You coupld probably make a platen that could ride on top of the existing platen and "bump" it out a bit so that you could work from it from either side and perform plunge cuts, etc. This might require shortening the idler pulley's distance from the drive wheel to allow for the additional distance of the platen bump out. If you bumped it out far enough, you might be able to use some 2x42 belts (on a 2" wide platen of course). That or see if you can get one of the craftsman 2 x 42 belt sanders, they aren't horribly expensive ($140 US maybe) and would work better than the 4x36 for blade grinding (still might have to modify the platen a little, but thats no big deal). Those are the current options I can think of, unless you are financially able to get a good professional 2x72, or feel like building your own (which would still end up costing you a few hundred probably, unless you are really good at scrounging).

As far as hamon goes, its definately something that I am greatly interested in. The reason I haven't gotten into more work with hamon is a function of available shop time. I don't get much time in the shop, and sometimes I have comissioned work which dictates what I do so that prevents me from doing alot of what I want. Additionally I have things that I want to do that sit higher on the list than hamon sometimes, namely pattern welding. Damascus is what has been occupying the majority of my shop time here recently and I'm really starting to open up my stride and get into upper end patterning (mosaics, etc). I do have a couple of big 1095 bowies in the works that I will be trying to get some nice hamon out of. I also have a chunk of some W2 that will eventually get some great hamon. Went today to get some W1 drill rod to do some blades with nice hamon (they didn't have any W1, but had some O1, so I grabbed that and have them shipping in the W1 for me next week). So its certainly something that greatly interests me and something that I will certainly be persuing further in the future, right now its just been time restrictions and other obligations (and interests) that have prevented it.

I'm going to look into that PBC stuff, that sounds like its exactly what i need. Plus its was easier to finish a blade before heat treatment. I can't see it causing a problem for hamons if all its doing is creating an oxygen barrier.

thanks for the advice I'll probably be starting a new knife this weekend so lets see if i can put this info to good use.

Jason

You'll still have to do some touch-up work on the blade after using the PCB, but otherwise its pretty good.

The reason I don't know about the PBC use when differentialy HT'ing is firstly how the clay would bond to the PBC. It might have issues sticking properly. Secondly the PBC will insulate the blade slightly (any coating will). It might not be enough to really cause too much issue, but at the same time subtle things can make big differences with hamon. Only really one way to find out for sure though. When working with hamon you can also use a very thin wash of something like satanite to protect against oxidation. 

I just came across a thread on BF about the PBC and differential HT issue and it brings up a point I didn't think about. The PBC is water soluable so if you use any sort of clay (satanite, fireplace cement, etc.) that has any water you will disolve the PBC under the clay causing it to fall off. The PBC is also pretty fragile when cool and will probably try to flake off as you apply the clay. So I don't think it will work for differential HT. Unless you could apply the PBC to the edge after putting the clay on and driving off the water in the clay... Don't know if anyone has tried that, may or may not work.

i saw that too and i was thinking the exact same thing as you. Apply the clay, let dry the only apply on the edge maybe 1/4" up. I think i'm going to try this on my next blade, it sounds very promising. This could really improve the mechanics of my blades, im pretty excited about trying this product. I still have a hard time getting a good edge on my knives and i think its partly poor edge geometry and partly lack of sharpening skill. (is the edge supposed to feel less sharp or smoother after the strop?)

On another note do you ever have problems with your knives rusting while sheathed? i oil the hell out of them but after like a day in the bush there is little rust spots. I can clean the rust off but it makes divits which i really don't like. plus the hamon get wrecked when i clean the rust off.

Jason

Edge sharpness has a number of variables.

The sharpness of an edge is dependent on a few main factors:

1. Edge geometery: The angle of the cutting edge and its cross sectional shape

2. Heat treatment" The microstructure of the steel in the blade which will dictate how the edge is supported.

3. Edge "Texture" : How fine/coarse the edge is (finely polished, or more "toothy")

4. Blade geometry: While not a "direct" factore of edge sharpness, it does play a big role in what type of edge/edge geometry can be applied to the blade, as well as playing a significant roll in how the blade cuts through different mediums.

The "type" of edge (edge geometry, cross-sectional shape, and "texture") a knife has should be matched to its intended cutting purposes. Finely polished edges are great for blades that will be shaving hair or carving wood (for example), but not so much for blades that might be slicing meat, where a more "toothy" edge would perform better. Additionally a convex edge or "appleseed" edge as some call it is a more durable edge, however it will not quite reach the same maximum attainable hardness as say a completly angular edge (not to say it can't get very sharp as it can, its just a mater of "maximum attainable sharpness"). Sharpening is a very tricky thing. I don't know enough about your process or technique to make any sort of assesment or recomendation as to where things might be going wrong. It does look like your edges might be a bit too obtuse, which is a bit of a function of the blade geometry and edge thickness. There could be other contributing factors as well on anything from your methods (grits and abrasive media, angles,  etc.) to your techinque (sharpening motion, consistancy, etc.). To answer your question: No after stroping the edge should not feel "less sharp" however it will be "smoother"/ more polished. Stroping is intended to remove the wire edge/ burr that forms on the edge when sharpening. In a "proper" sharpening techinque you should bring the edge down to an acute enough angle (say 22 deg, down to 10, depending on the intended use), so that you form a wire edge (should be very visable). Once you get a wire edge you know the edge is so thin that it can no longer support itself (this is a good thing). You must remove the portion of the edge which is too thin and leave that portion right behind it (this will give you the sharpest edge possible for that given steel, HT, edge geometry, and edge "texture"). Stroping will remove this wire edge and will slighly polish the edge to help increase sharpness. A good sharp edge should be able to shave hair off your arm with ease. If it doesn't, its not really that sharp. If you have further questions regarding sharpening or sharpening technique, let me know.

As far as rusting goes, I haven't had too much issue with blades rusting in sheaths, unless they were put in dirty/wet, or were stored for a very long time in the sheath. Rusting in the sheath will be more of a problem in certain climates than others. Those that are more humid will have more of an issue while the drier regions won't have as much problem. Different steels also have more of an issue with rusting than others. O1, for example, loves to rust and will do so extremly quickly, more so than some of the other steels like 5160 (just an example). The type of oil/protective coating being used can also play a big part. Some oils coat things much heavier and protect better. WD40 for instance tends to dry/evaporate very quickly and have more of a limited protection as opposed to thicker oils like a 3-in-1 (or something that is more viscous). You can also use various wax products to protect your blades. Reniassance wax is a very good product (a bit pricey per can, but worth the money and goes a very long way). You can also use Mother's Caranuba wax, and probably some other automotive waxes as well. The best thing I can recommend is to make sure the blade is clean and dry before re-sheathing, make sure the sheath isn't getting filled with dirt/moisture, and maybe try some differnt oil or one of the waxes I mentioned. On a final note, for those blades that get taken out and used, tarnishing and oxidation are almost ineviatable, unless you are excessivly picky and dilagent with maintenance. Some folks like the "patina" that a carbon steel knife will develop over time, with use, some don't.