Fredeen Blades

Hi Graham

First off, thanks for the info via email. Have a question though. I have finally finished setting up my forge and new(used) anvil and am trying out old files before I buy any of the rather expensive steels. The problem I am finding is that the files tend to break apart when hammered at cherry red - is this because the steel is too hot and should I forge at a lower temp? Also, do I need to anneal the files before forging?

Thanks

Tim

Hey Tim,

You don't need to aneal files (or any steel for that matter) prior to forging. As soon as you heat the steel up to forging temperatures (above 1500 F or so) you exceed critical temperature and the previous microsturcture of the steel transforms into what is known as austenite. So basically once austenite forms the previous structure is erased. This won't be the cause for your cracking.

That's a bit of a strange problem. Unfortunately there is no way ( aside of spending some $$ and sending them out for analysis) of telling what the files are made out of. Such is the problem with using used and unknown steels. A lot of files were 1095 or W1, but there were some that were many other things. A lot of the modern files from china and india can often be case hardened. There might be some air hardening alloy files as well (I'm not sure). The steel type will determine how the steel needs to be worked (maximum and minimum working temp, etc.) 

I can say that your problem is not from working the steel too hot, but probably because you are working it too cold. A lot of different alloys have minimum working temperatures up around 1600-1700 F. If you work below these temperatures you can get cold fractures. Some steels have a maximum working temperature (usually up around 2000F) but cherry red isn't close to that, and that is usually for more of the upper end alloys that are pushing towards stainless steels.

Here's what I'd recommend. Firstly, don't work the steel below a cherry red. Firstly you won't get much steel moved at those lower temps and you risk cold cracking the steel if it is an alloy that doesn't like being worked too cold. Forge between 2000 F and 1500 F as a general rule (unless you are working with a specific alloy that needs special temperature considerations). This will be between a yellow and a cherry red (depending on the lighting. Steel colors look different in different degrees of lighting, so keep that in mind). As you approace the lower end of the temperature range (cherry red) you shouldn't be trying to move large amounts of steel, just fine-tuning things before the next heat (straightening, tweaking, adjusting, etc).

Secondly, I don't know if you are trying to quench/cool off the steel at any point in the process. If so, you may be cracking the steel in the quench and then when you heat it and start to hammer it comes apart. Don't ever quench any knife steel unless you are in the hardening process, and in that case, use only the appropriate quench medium for the type of steel you are using.

Additionally, used steel can have all sorts of damage and stress from its previous life. You can run into junkyard steels that can have stress fracturs and cracking that you cannot see. When you go to heat these up and start forging they come apart on you. The only way to really ensure this doesn't happen is to use new steel.

Finally, but I don't think this would necessarily cause your issue, but its just something I'll throw out there. I don't know if you are grinding off the file teeth before you start forging or not.. The file teeth will make little cold shuts and show up in the final product. They could also be a potential source for stress concentration and could contribute to fractures, however I have seen many file knives made with the teeth still on, so I don't think this would be a big issue, but I'll throw it out anyway.

My recomendation to all people starting out is to transition into good new known steel as soon as you can (if you are serious about making knives). Knowing what the steel is will give you the advantage of having refrence material and specifications regarding heat treatment and forging characteristics for that particular type of steel. Knowing what the steel is will also help you to add repeatability to your process. You will gain experience on how to work a particular type of steel and then you can fine-tune your heat treatment procedures for that particular steel. Using unkown steel means you are basically taking a shot in the dark and have to start from "scratch" with your heat treatment. Good blade steels aren't too expensive if you really look at things, and would be worth looking into. 5160 is a good beginer's steel. It forges well, and is forgiving in its working temps and heat treatment (unlike something like 1095 which is realy picky when hardening). You might be able to pick up some new 5160 stock from a place that does leaf spring rearching and suspension work. They will often have drops you can have for cheap, or even free. If you want to try used 5160 (possibly), a lot of leaf springs are 5160 (but not all, so keep that in mind) when you go to the scrapyard. You can also probably find some drill rod in a decent alloy (W1 or O1) that wont be too bad, but not as beginer friendly as 5160 (but still doable).

Hope this helps some.  

Hi Graham

Thanks for the lengthy reply - shows a passion for what you're doing and helps us slow learners. I have since tried on a known Nicholson file and the forging went much smoother. I will post a few pics of the process when finished. I am finding however that I tend to leave the steel in the heat to long and it starts sparking and have had to start over when the steel disintegrates and have even had a piece fall off. (I am using a coal forge - gas is not up and running yet)

You mentioned that steel is cheap, not so here in SA, so will have to learn the hard way on steel I am willing to lose. Though I must admit that stock removal is a lot easier than forging and am wondering what all the hype is about forged blades - does the forging process do something to the steel that does not happen in stock removal? Also, I have read that good Damascus can be made from 2 outer mild steel laminates and a inner high carbon tool steel laminate (01), I read this in an issue of The finer edge in an article about Bill Moran - what are your thoughts on this? Can mild steel make a servicable blade? Again thanks for the info and I must admit that forging is far more rewarding than stock removal - though my long unused muscles don't agree.

Tim

Hey Tim,

This will probably be another long one ;). You are correct in that I am passionate about this craft and more than happy to help out those starting in the craft.

If you heat the steel to the point where it starts sparking, you have definitely overheated the steel, essentially burning it. Once you do this the steel is ruined. If you have overheated the steel and then forge at a lower temp, this could be a potential cause of cracking/crumbling at lower temps.

Coal/charcoal forges are a bit more tricky to control and you can easily burn things in them. Some folks get a little too heavy with the blower/bellows trying to get things to heat up too quickly and run into issues with burning steel a lot. It doesn’t take huge amounts of air to heat things up, so slow and steady with your air source is the way to go.

I don’t know about steel prices in your area, but it would still be worth checking into one of the suspension shops to try to get some of their 5160 drops from leaf springs. You should be able to get the steel at scrap prices, or maybe even free if you talk to the right people. They use new steel at those places and usually have paperwork to prove the alloy etc. As far as files go, Nicholson is about the only manufacturer that has and still does use 1095 for their files and they would be the closest thing you could get to a safe bet and "known" steel aside from buying new stock.

As far as the whole forging vs stock removal thing, this is something that has been debated for years and probably still will be for years to come. Here is my take on things:

Forging and making a blade using stock removal are both viable ways to make a good knife. Ultimately the performance of the blade will depend solely on the type of steel, heat treatment, and blade design. If you were to make 2 identical knives, one forged, one completely ground, heat treated them the same (same steel, etc.), you really wouldn’t be able to tell the difference in terms of performance or function of the blade. Now that may seem like a good argument for making blades by stock removal and saving a bunch of work, and that’s what some choose, however a stock removal maker is limited on the types of knives that they can produce. In other words, a stock removal maker is limited by the size of their steel stock. You don’t see too many stock removal makers making integral bolster knives. The reason being that they would have to get a block of steel that would be as thick as their bolster and as wide as their entire blade/bolster/tang. In that case you’d be talking about a piece of steel that would be ¾” x 2" x 10" (or whatever the size of the knife). Thats a pretty big chunk of blade steel, a very hard chunk of blade steel to find, and a very expensive chunk of steel... and then you have to try to spend hours grinding a knife out of it, there aren't too many people with the determination to attempt that, and even fewer who would be willing to try it a second time. By forging you are not limited by the size/shape of your stock so you have many more options available. Forging also allows you to do something a stock removal maker can never do, and thats make your own pattern welded steel. This gives you much more freedom over your blades (not limited by the "standard" damascus steel that is out there on the market), and making your damascus blades allows for sole authorship, something a stock removal maker can't claim if they use someone elses steel (I'm pretty picky with sole authorship, some aren't). So I'd definately say that you are very limited as a stock removal maker while as a bladesmith you are only limited by where you want to take things. I also think being a bladesmith is a bit more prestigeious than being a stock removal knife maker, because you are carrying on a very proud standing tradition and carrying on a mellinia's old craft. To me there is a sense of pride in being able to be apart of this craft. Additionally, as a bladesmith you also have to be more skilled (as in have more skill sets) than a stock removal maker. A bladesmith has to have all the grinding skills, fit and finish skills ("knifemaking" skills if you will) as a stock removal maker, but additionally must also have the skills of a blacksmith, and if you make pattern welded steel, the skills of a very accomplished blacksmith. Now I certainly don't have any issues with stock removal makers, there are some very talented and amazing stock removal makers out there, and am not trying to downplay the skill it takes to grind a blade, but this is just my viewpoint on bladesmithing as opposed to stock removal and why I personally chose to be a bladesmith.

Now onto the laminating process you are talking about. That process is what is known as San Mai, which was a process used extensively in Japanese bladesmithing (whether or not that's where it truly originated, or whether or not there were other cultures that used similar construciton methods independently or before, I'm not sure). San Mai blades have a center "core" of high carbon steel which protrudes for the edge, "sandwhiched" between two lower carbon steel (or iron even) pieces. San Mai does have very good performance characteristics (hard edge/core, supported by soft and resiliant outer layers) that are highly desirable in a blade. San Mai is also a very useful technique when you are working with materials that would otherwise be fairly poor blade materials. Many modern makers use San Mai with damascus when working with things like pure nickel or meterorite in their billets, which would otherwise not make a very servicable knife on their own. This way they can get the appearance they are after while haveing a good performing blade. There are many other applications for the San Mai process in bladesmithing though (welding in a good edge for RR Spike knives, welding in bits for axes/hatchets, etc). I'll be delving into a bit of San Mai eventually (want to do some wrought iron San Mai). I'd like to play with some in the near future, but with that knife show comming up I doubt I'll get to it, and have had to prioritize blades that HAVE to be done for the show and whatever else I can squeeze in will be more than great.

Have a good one.  

Again, thanks for the assistance. I have four Nicholson files to practice on and am sourcing a place for steel. Will be attempting my first damascus blade in the next few weeks, just finishing off my gas forge and the blade I am busy on. If you need some warthog tusk any time then let me know - have about 35 pairs of varying lengths that I got for a good price and can also get giraffe bone fairly cheap. Good luck with the show and will post picks on the finished knife soon.

Cheers

Tim

SA